Michele Davis: [00:00]

You are listening to the Created For Podcast. We believe that everyone was created to make a unique impact in the world. Created For is a podcast to explore ideas around purpose, calling, and discovering how God is inviting you to influence the world in your own way right now. I’m your host, Michele Davis. Today we are thrilled to bring you this conversation with Milton Massie. Milton and his wife Cynthia have been ministering on the Southside of Chicago since 1980. Milton is the Executive Steward and Director of Cru Inner City and is also a shepherding, governing, and teaching elder of a church that he helped to plant in 1999. Milton is a bridge and a prophetic voice to help the church live out God’s heart for the poor, to build up believers into mature faith through discipleship in the church, and to challenge the body of Christ to intentionally address the realities of systemic injustice using the Bible and the life of Jesus as the source of authority. Bottom line, this man knows his Bible, and he knows how to live it out in the community he serves. You might want to grab a pen and paper to take notes on this one.

Milton, I am really looking forward to our conversation today, and I’m especially looking forward to something that I read once about you and about your ministry, and I wanted to give you space to explain more about it. And that is that you see your ministry — or maybe even just see your role in the ministry — as being a bridge and a prophetic voice to help the church live out God’s heart for the poor. And really, I’m just here ready to take a seat and learn about that right now. I want to know what God has put on your heart, about what does the church today need to know about God’s heart for the poor?

Milton Massie: [3:56] I think what I would do is start from a broader perspective or a broader level. I would go all the way back to … Genesis 18:19 is a verse that actually has the preincarnate Christ showing up at the tent of Abraham. And in that instance, just a brief point we’re making here is that this is just before God and the other two people who are with Him are showing up at Abraham’s tent, and they are about to go to Sodom and Gomorrah to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. And He’s bringing Abraham into it. But before He does this, He makes several statements about Abraham that have implications on what God’s heart is for the imago dei, period. And that is this. In verse 19 He simply says, “For I have chosen him — ” meaning Abraham, “ — that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing — ” What is this? “ — By doing righteousness and justice — ” There’s a comma after that, but then he says, “ — So that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” Here’s what we’re talking about. Keeping the way of the Lord. The church is called to keep the way of the Lord. The members of the body of Christ, the ecclesia, the called-out are called to keep the way of the Lord. And how do you keep the way of the Lord? According to this verse, we keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and doing justice. Now, what is justice and righteousness in this context? Both words, וּמִשְׁפָּ֑ט and צְדָקָ֖ה (mishpot and sedeqah). One word talks of the vertical relationship. Righteousness — that is, my piety and being straight with God. But then it being demonstrated in the horizontal relationships I have with fellow image-bearers.

Michele: [6:09] Ohh, yeah.

Milton: [6:10] The image-bearers. So how am I supposed to treat fellow image-bearers? Well, according to this verse and many verses that follow it, I’m supposed to treat them with justice. And we’re talking about restorative justice. Not just the idea that I want to make sure that you get right with God, but before they even do get right with God I’m still treating them in a manner that says they are my neighbor. Now, we fast-forward that to Leviticus, and we have where Jesus gets the Great Commandments from, and he says that we’re not supposed to do injustice in the courts according to Leviticus 19:15. He says to do no injustice in the court; you should not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness you should judge your neighbor. Now, what we’re talking about here, your question is, what is God’s heart for the poor? God’s heart for those who have the imago dei in them, period, is that I treat them justly.

Michele: [7:26] Yeah.

Milton: [7:27] I treat them justly. Now, when a person specifically is in a category of the disenfranchised and the poor, the marginalized — those terms that are now scary terms for us to use in Christiandom today because they have this political flavor associated with them — they’ve been co-opted. Those terms have been co-opted. I’m a part of those who are committed to reclaiming Biblical truth and not let it be co-opted by nonbelievers or by a group of folk who say, “Oh we should just stay away from that topic because it’s been co-opted.” Well, I can’t stay away from that because Jesus didn’t stay away from it.

Michele: [8:13] Amen.

Milton: [8:14] Let’s talk about the Great Commission, what we call the Great Commission — I’m in no way saying that the Commission is not great. What I’m saying is that Jesus never called it great, technically.

Michele: [8:26] Technically. Yeah.

Milton: [8:27] He never called it great. The only commandment that he called great was the Great Commandment. The Great Commission is more than me making converts. It’s me making disciples. You see what I’m saying? Okay, how does this relate to God’s heart for the poor? It relates to God’s heart for the poor because Jesus says in that verse — the Great Commission — he says, “Teaching a disciple that you made to observe all that I have commanded. All that I have commanded.” So all that he has commanded is beyond this person coming to know Christ. They come to know Christ, and then I make them a disciple, and making them a disciple, I’m gonna teach them — he says “teaching” them. That means to impart life, not just do what the American educational system is known for and that is to disseminate information that you’re supposed to memorize and then spit it back out to pass a test.

Michele: [9:29] Ooh, yeah.

Milton: [9:31] That’s not changing life. That’s not imparting life. What Jesus is talking about is imparting life. And that’s to broaden your funnel. When we start narrowing this thing down to, “What is God’s heart for the poor?” God’s heart for the poor is that the poor are among those who are disenfranchised, marginalized, and those are the people that — He doesn’t look at them as more important than anyone else, because He’s concerned about every person, but He wants to make sure that we do not discriminate because of their social status. Because of their status in our culture, in our society, no matter what skin they’re wrapped in. So, what is God’s heart for the poor? My estimation would be, God’s heart for the poor is that they know Jesus Christ, certainly as savior and Lord, but also that in the midst of that, we do not ignore their physical condition, we do not discriminate against their social status, and we do not look at them as a lesser grade of the imago dei, a cheaper cut.

Michele: [10:47] Right, yeah.

Milton: [10:49] Because the imago dei in them is just as valuable as somebody who has everything they need physically.

Michele: [10:56] Mhmm.

Milton: [10:57] There’s more but I’ll take a break there. There’s more. There’s tons more.

Michele: [11:03] Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh, there’s many things that you just said that I want to double-click on. I’m going to pick a few. Okay, first of all, a comment that a lot of what you’re talking about reminds me of a Christian ethics class I took recently. And when you’re thinking about Christian ethics, it is about, “How do we live in light of who we are in the Gospel?” And that is what you’re talking about. Like, it is just the ethical, right thing to do to live justly to all people.

Milton: [11:38] That’s it. Period.

Michele: [11:39] Yeah. That is so important. I kind of want to drill down in a little bit more about something that you alluded to about how some of the terms that we talk about and even some of the ideas that are clearly biblical through the whole thing, Genesis through Revelation, but because some of these terms or ideas have been co-opted in a political sphere, I think it’s made some roadblocks to the church living that out. And I wondered if you could comment on some of the ones — especially ones that you see are really practically impacting your ministry in Chicago. You know, what are some of the things that have been co-opted politically that is then making it hard for the church to live out this ethical vision that is very clear in Scripture?

Milton: [12:29] Well, when we start talking about terms like “oppressed” and using terms like “equity,” the term “marginalized” and that sort of thing, immediately you find yourself word-policed.

Michele: [12:48] Uh-huh.

Milton: [12:49] We get into philosophies.

Michele: [12:51] Yeah.

Milton: [12:52] What tends to be challenges for us is that when we dive deep into discipling somebody, the fact that it takes time and investment in a kid to help that kid have proper education or education that will allow them to compete in the larger culture and large society. When we have to work with organizations that work with moms who have said they’re trying to get their high school education, go to college, those particular values while they’re still having to care for their child, that’s part of discipling people.

Michele: [13:31] Yeah.

Milton: [13:32] And there are folk who will look at us and say, “Well now you’re preaching a social gospel because you’re more concerned about those things than you are about them coming to know Christ.” And here’s the challenge for me — or what has been a challenge for us — I’m trying to figure out where in the Bible that there’s been a line or division between the Great Commandment and the Great Commission. I don’t see it.

Michele: [14:01] I haven’t seen it either.

Milton: [14:03] I don’t see it. And yet, that’s where you get the camps of, “Well, you know, you preaching social gospel.” “Well no, you’re preaching just a salvific message.” And I’m going, wait a minute. No. There is a marriage here, there is a union here, because of what Jesus says in the Great Commission in verse 20. “Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” You’ve got to take time to teach this person all that Jesus has commanded. That’s the ethical side of them living, that’s how they interact with society, that’s how a new believer or a maturing believer learns how to function on this side of heaven before they get there.

Michele: [14:52] Mhmm.

Milton: [14:53] So, some of the challenges have to do with when we begin to have to address these earthly issues of a person not having what they need to flourish.

Michele: [15:05] Yeah.

Milton: [15:06] God wants all of us to flourish. And here’s another piece. When you argue back and you tell me, “Well, all these issues would be okay if you just preach the Gospel,” that’s what I’ve often heard.

Michele: [15:20] I know, I’ve heard that too.

Milton: [15:22] And my retort to that and all that I hear is, which Gospel are you talking about? “Preach Jesus.” Well, which Jesus are you talking about? And then you say, “What do you mean?” And I’ll say, “The Jesus and the Gospel that he told us to preach moves you towards your neighbor, not away from your neighbor.”

Michele: [15:45] Yeah. Ugh, yeah. And the Gospel — like, the immediate fruit that happened was what we see in the Book of Acts, and we see in Acts 2 that the believers had everything in common. And that they sold their possessions and gave to the poor, and they took care of one another, and they were dispersing help and practical things to widows, you know? That’s there. And that’s the early church. And Milton, I’ve heard that too: “If you really want to change the world, go preach the Gospel.” Okay, so I’m preaching the Gospel, and then also, didn’t you say that because at one point, you’re like, “Yeah, when people know the Gospel then the world gets changed?” So when I feel my heart burdened to do more to care for my neighbor, isn’t that what you told me would happen? Isn’t that people filled with the Holy Spirit being led to change the systems and change the practical reality of my neighbors and to actually care?

Milton: [16:51] Exactly. Exactly. That’s actually doing justice. If we go all the way back to the Genesis passage that I talked about, that’s the reason why I started there. I started there because that is foundational. I can even go theological with that from this perspective that if you are a descendant of Abraham by faith because you believe Jesus — according to Galatians 3, according to Romans 4, because by faith I have accepted Christ, then now I’m a son of Abraham because I have exercised the same kind of faith in God that Abraham did that was credited to him as righteousness.

So guess what? The horizontal righteousness is now taken care of. And that’s a one-time deal. That’s a done deal. But guess how it’s proven that that’s a done deal? By my horizontal way of exercising justice toward my neighbor. And you can say, “Oh, the just thing you can do is share the Gospel with them.” Not so! Yes, it’s right for me to do, it’s not unnecessary for me to do, it is necessary for me to do, but you don’t stop there and just leave it to someone else. I have to now invest in this person’s life, because that is what the early church did, that is what Jesus did.

Michele: [18:13] Yeah, he literally healed people which then changed their economic opportunities.

Milton: [18:18] So, that’s my point. I mean, one other thing that I was saying, Michele, and this is something that I’m paying attention to as well, I’m asking the Lord to help me to notice in the Gospels the teachings that Jesus gave us that I do not hear often preached.

Michele: [18:42] Mhmm.

Milton: [18:43] Because if 28:20 of the Great Commission tells me that I’m supposed to obey all that he commanded, then I need to go back and look at all that he taught.

Michele: [18:55] Uh-huh.

Milton: [18:56] Because all that he taught is required of me. It’s required of me. But the other tricky part for me is the things that we exalt as valuable in this world to justify us not going deep with a person beyond them initially knowing Christ. And that’s found in Luke 16, when Jesus tells the parable of the shrewd manager. The way he ends that particular account — he ends that account by rebuking the Pharisees because the Pharisees love the money, and they did not like the fact that Jesus told them, “You can’t serve God and money.”

Michele: [19:42] Yeah.

Milton: [19:43] And I believe that America, like many world powers, is guilty of serving mammon.

Michele: [19:50] Uh-huh.

Milton: [19:51] And the church is guilty of serving mammon. And we’re guilty of serving mammon because Jesus says it in that passage in verse 15. He says to the Pharisees, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts.”

Michele: [20:07] Mhmm.

Milton: [20:07] And here’s the phrase that hooks us all: “For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.”

Michele: [20:14] Mhmm.

Milton: [20:15] Now my question is this: how broad is that tent?

Michele: [20:19] Hmm.

Milton: [20:20] How broad is that tent? That is, how broad are the things that we exalt in this world, in this country, and we call that, “Oh, that’s flourishing for Jesus Christ?” Plus all those things that we exalt God calls an abomination because they discriminate against those who have the Imago Dei. Back to the original question, our heart, and what we do at Cru Inner City, is central to what the Great Commission says, but it is not divorced from the Great Commandment.

Michele: [20:59] Yeah.

Milton: [21:00] It’s just not divorced from the Great Commission — because I don’t believe you can effectively live out the Great Commission without practicing the Great Commandment.

Michele: [21:07]  We’re supposed to, like … The whole Bible is important, and not just, like, four key verses. And so that’s faithfulness that honors God. And you’re right, I think probably it’s not just our modern generations that are having issues like loving money more than God, but definitely when you said that, a few really specific things come to mind about how we measure — and part of it, character development is hard to measure, I guess, but we do measure dollars. We do measure numbers a lot. And I’m not saying that’s all bad, but it’s just incomplete, right? It’s really humbling to think about that. Is that what you’re referring to as exalted as more valuable?

Milton: [22:17] Yes. Yes, I am. I mean, there’s all kinds of — there’s my portfolio, my status in the community, my status in the company. It’s basically worldly values. Holiness in and of itself is to live separate from the values of the world. And yet, a lot of what we value, I believe we’ve rationalized it and said that, “Well, this is okay.” And that’s not in and of itself bad, but what happens is that sooner or later that thing becomes an idol.

Michele: [22:56] Mhmm.

Milton: [22:57] It becomes what I’m pursuing as opposed to what I’m trying to keep in perspective. I’m not saying that a person should not do their best, that you shouldn’t go ahead and grab after education, or that you shouldn’t attempt to make a livable wage, those types of things. I’m not saying any of that. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t invest — because, again, you know, we live in a capitalistic system, and a capitalistic system has values associated with it.

Michele: [23:29] Yeah.

Milton: [23:30] But I don’t believe that everything about capitalism is godly.

Michele: [23:35] Right, yeah.

Milton: [23:37] Because greed is a negative fallout of capitalism; that’s not godly. And we can systematically, systemically discriminate against people through or within a capitalistic society. And it’s done everyday.

Milton: [24:01] Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. I’m sitting here flipping to Revelation, and I keep thinking about the churches in Revelation and the way that the warnings there are things that we should really heed today about losing our first love, valuing the celebrity and the dollars and the praise more than God, and how we treat people being something that’s — it is something that we’re going to have to answer for in eternity.

Milton: [24:36] Mhmm. Yes. Absolutely.

Michele: [24:40] Yeah. Milton, I feel like I could flip through Scripture and deep dive this all day. And maybe we should have a part two or part three to this. But I do want to keep in mind that we have listeners right now who, their heart’s following along with us and they’re like, “Oh, yeah! Yeah!” in their car or on their walk or whatever, and then the thought comes to them, “What do I do now? What do I do in my daily life if I want to put some of these really good and deep truths into practice now, what do I do?” So I’m wondering if you might have a word for our listener who has that question in their mind right now, like “What do I do with this next? What’s my next step?”

Milton: [25:24] I was prepared for that. But let me be very … not careful, but just intentional about what I believe a first next step actually is, because honestly, if I tell you what my opinion or my perspective is, that’s my opinion. That’s my perspective. I’m going to first challenge the listener to consider, “What is our master telling us to do?” And if you’re not sensitive spiritually, if your heart is calloused, if you’re allowing worldly values and worldly possessions and conclusions to dictate how you see other people, period, even brothers and sisters in Christ, then there’s some work that needs to be done, I would say, in the spiritual woodshed.

Michele: [26:28] Oh, okay.

Milton: [26:29] There’s a need to first go to the Lord and ask him, “What do you want me to do next?”

Michele: [26:37] Yeah, to listen to that.

Milton: [26:39] Ecclesiastes 5 tells us that when we approach the house of God, we should be quicker to listen rather than to talk.

Michele: [26:52] Yeah.

Milton: [26:53] And I need that because I talk a lot.

Michele: [26:55] Me too.

Milton: [26:57] I need to listen more than I talk. So he tells us in that, “Guard your steps when you go to the house of God; draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil. Don’t be rash with your mouth, or let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you are on earth.” Okay, what does that mean? How does that answer your question? I believe that I’m supposed to first challenge the listener to make sure that you are praying.

Michele: [27:27] Mhmm.

Milton: [27:28] You’re gonna say, “That’s trite!” No, it’s not trite.

Michele: [27:30] It’s not trite, yeah, no. I’m here for it.

Milton: [26:57] It’s the discipline! It’s the discipline. Seek him first, because guess what? You could read and get information on a next step. You really could. You could do this on Google and get information. But if you’re not going to be led of the Holy Spirit and led of God to know what to do and how to do it, you’re going to make this thing about cognitive steps that you’re not even getting God’s leading on. And you need God’s leading. And then let me go here: He has already shown us, according to Michael 6:8.

Michele: [28:12] Mhmm.

Milton: [28:13] “He’s already shown you, O man, what is good.” What is good? What does the Lord require? And then He says it: “Do justly. Love mercy — ”

Michele: [28:24] “Walk humbly.”

Milton: [28:25] And then, “Walk humbly.” So I would think those three things are necessary. Do what’s just. Love mercy. Walk humbly. That’s next. Look at people as, they’re not a cheaper cut. They have the imago dei in them just like you do. And because of that, then I need to ask, “Well, Lord, you’ve done this for me. What do you want me to do where this person is concerned?” I could tell you to get involved in community activities, I could tell you to go do outreaches, get connected with this particular ministry that does outreaches, this, this, this. But those are activities. I’m going after your posture.

Michele: [29:10] Yeah.

Milton: [29:11] I’m going after your posture. What is your posture? As a matter of fact, if there’s anything I can say that I pray that people will not mistake, justice is actually a loving posture towards my brother and sister that has the imago dei in them.

Michele: [29:30] Yeah.

Milton: [29:31] That’s what justice is. It’s a loving posture.

Michele: [29:33] A loving posture. And they know we’re Christians by our love, right?

Milton: [29:40] Yes.

Michele: [29:40] Yeah. And Milton, this is so consistent to what you’ve talked about earlier, just about the importance of the discipleship. It’s really consistent for you to say that the first step is to dig deep with God and to be sure that our heart’s in the right place, that our hearts are aligned to him and connected to him and that’s … honestly, it feels like a bit of a balm to my heart. I do think that something in maybe how I’m wired or maybe how I’ve been socialized culturally or whatever just focuses on the exterior tasks, and those tasks make me feel like I’m a good person when I can check them off. And I love a checkbox, right? But that’s not going to help me finish the race with confidence, right? That’s not … I don’t think I get to show my to-do list to Jesus in heaven. He’s going to look at my heart.

Milton: [30:43] Yes. That’s good. That’s good.

Michele: [30:44] If that doesn’t make you shudder, I don’t know.

Milton: [30:47] That’s real good because it’s more important for us to be the church rather than doing the church now because Christ tells us, again — and I’m saying Christ from the Genesis 18 passage because many theologians say that’s a theophany, that that’s a preincarnated revealing of Christ in that particular passage, so I’m saying — Christ is telling Abraham, “The way you’re going to keep my ways is by doing righteousness and justice.” So, what’s next? Be the follower of Christ that you say you are in word, deed, attitude, posture.

Michele: [31:40] Yeah. Be what you say you are.

Milton: [31:45] Be what you say you are.

Michele: [31:47] I dropped my pencil because I can’t drop my mic.

Milton: [31:49] Drop the mic. That’s when you drop the mic. Amen.

Michele: [31:56] Amen to that. Okay, even though we did just drop the mic, I do want to give one last moment for you, Milton, if there’s any other final word that you feel like God has laid on your heart for us today, you know? We’re in this space in the Created For platform and podcast, we really do believe that there’s a whole generation of people who are seeking out their purpose and their calling, and we want to help them respond to God in doing that, so any last word for that person.

Milton: [32:34] I would say again, similar to what I did say in that particular talk, is that — this is what I would, again, encourage, is that we need to remember who we are in order for us to be who we are. So, you’re already chosen. You’ve already been given a position of royalty. You are part of a holy nation. You are people that are possessed by God, so I need to remember who I am, which I said earlier, remember whose you are. To who do you belong? To who do you belong? If I remember whose I am, then I’m motivated to be that person, because whose I am is God’s, so that means I’m His representative.

Here’s what the Scripture says about that: we are stewards. We are highly loved, we are accepted in the beloved, but we are also stewards. We have an assignment, and one day we’re going to give a Bema Seat report. Because we have a Bema Seat appointment. Every one of us does, and God is going to ask, “What did you do?” You know, with the whole ten minas, the servant, “How did you do with what I gave you? How did you invest it?” We’re all gonna have that kind of experience with Jesus Christ, the master, looking in his face, and he’s going to ask, “What did you do with the gift I gave you while you were here? How did you invest it for me?” Right? And what you said, it’s more than about me bringing my checklist and saying, “Hey, Jesus, here’s my checklist, what do you think?” He’s going to be examining the heart the entire time. This goes back to 1 Corinthians 3, where all our works make it in. We may get in as by fire, but our works make it in. That’s what I mean by our works making it in.

Michele: [34:41] Yeah. That’s a good place to wrap. Thank you so much, Milton. I feel challenged and encouraged and just so thankful for you and so thankful that you’re standing in the gap. And you really did bring a prophetic voice and a bridge today, so thank you for doing that.

Milton: [35:03] Thank you for having me, I appreciate it. I really do. Thank you much.

Michele: [35:07] Let’s pause for a minute with one of the many wise things that Milton said today. Be the follower of Christ that you say you are in word, deed, attitude and posture. Perhaps this is a good time to ask God to walk us through each of those areas: our words, our deeds, our attitudes and our posture. God, show us where we are lined up with you and where we fall short of reflecting you in each of these areas. Thank you for the grace and the presence of your spirit that both give us hope for growth and change. Created For is hosted and produced by Cru. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate, or review it wherever you listen. For more resources to continue your journey to living out your impact, check out the show notes on our website, https://www.cru.org/createdfor, and follow us on Instagram @_createdfor. Thanks for listening!

Created For is hosted and produced by Cru. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate or review it wherever you listen. For more resources to continue your journey to living out your impact, check out the show notes on our website, https://www.cru.org/createdfor, and follow us on Instagram @_createdfor. Thanks for listening!